I am not sure how to handle situations like this or if my feelings are even valid, but my husband and I went camping last week with a really good friend, her 11 year old niece and her husband and we noticed what we thought was odd behavior. I just want to know if it is normal for a 37 year old man to shower with an 11 year old? Also, the entire weekend, the 11 year old and man were cuddled up together, holding hands and she was always sitting on his lap and he was rubbing her. I mentioned that we got a weird vibe from it to my friend and now she is very offended and upset. She said it was innocent and they are just affectionate people. Am I wrong for telling her how we felt? Is this kind of behavior between uncle and child normal?
Stacey,
This is absolutely 100% not normal and screams abuse to me. You were right to mention something to your friend, and unfortunately it sounds like your friend is in denial. A grown man of any age should. not be taking shower with anyone not their offspring, and at 11 years old not at all.
Melissa
It is far better to save this child from abuse (call Child Protective Services) than to maintain a friendship with someone in such ignorant denial. She would rather stay with a child molester than lose her man; that is no friendship I would want.
My aunt and uncle unwittingly allowed my cousin (their daughter) to be molested for years by some weird-o who gave her and them all kinds of presents. They thought he was such a nice guy, and foolishly let her spend hours at a time alone with this guy, who is now in prison. My cousin (now in her mid 20s) still sees a shrink. She didn't know at the time that what he was doing was not ok. People should use more common sense, and teach their children at a young age - my five year old knows what's appropriate and what's not.
When I was about 8 years old my parents were adding on to the house. One day my mom was irrigating outside and I was playing with my siblings in the irrigation ditch/water and was wearing a bathing suit. One of the contractors beckoned to me. I was creeped out by him and I knew there was no good reason that he wanted me to come over to him (when no one else was right there) so I ran off. The point is that my mom had taught me well enough for me to know better, even at that age.
I'm sure the child's parents would want to know what was going on, and would assume their daughter was safe with their sister, of all people. If your husband also thought it was inappropriate, then it's not just you.
Stacey- The sitting on the lap, wierd for me, but I have seen it a lot, so maybe I am just not cuddly. The holding hands sounds pretty innocent. "rubbing her", unless he's "rubbing her" where he shouldn't be, that could be pretty innocent too. The wierd, SCREAMS WIERD, at me thing is the shower. Gross, that is not right. It is NOT okay for him to be in the shower with her. Even if nothing "wrong" is happening, it is still innapropriate for that to be happening. Shame on the mother, your friend, for not pulling her head out of the sand to see that THAT is not okay. Who cares if your friend is upset. That poor little girl could be forced to be fondling, touching, looking, or some other awful thing with that man in the shower, and no one would know. Ugh, it makes me mad just to think about it.
You WERE NOT wrong to say anything to her about it, it I NOT normal behavior.
You can always call CPS and ask them what they would define as abuse, just make sure that you are sure you want to go that route.
GOod luck to you, but more luck to the little girl, Laura
I agree with the other responces. The shower is not normal at all. He is her uncle not her dad. That is just insane. If you were to find out later that the situation was abuse and you never said anything, you would feel much worse. I would probably contact CPS and report the situation. Better safe than sorry.
You AND your husband feel something's not right because it's NOT RIGHT.
All the other situations pale in comparsion to the shower. An adult does not shower with an 11 year old child!!!
You were absolutely right to talk to your friend. Too many times we try to explain away things that's right in our face. How many times do we hear, "he/she was the nicest man/woman, never thought he/she would do..."
I just spoke to my 23 year old daughter about this and she was appalled. First thing she asked, when was CPS or the police called?
Protecting the little girl and not your friend's feelings is whats most important. As hard as it maybe, call CPS.
This is not only weird. What you've described has all the marks of sexual abuse. I investigated these type of cases for years. If someone gave me this info I'd investigate right then.
I would report it to Child Protective Services so that this can be professionally investigate before relationships hamper the investigation.
The fact that your friend was upset when you mentioned could indicate that on some level she knows or suspects that her husband is being inappropriate with her neice. She may be in denial or she may know and not want to face it. If this were innocent the usual reaction would be to possible take offense at first but then be willing to talk with you and reassure you in a friendly way. Perhaps even thank you for letting her know that this does appear weird so that if it were innocent the uncle could change how he shows affection in public.
Even if sex is not involved, the sitting on the lap and cuddling the niece who is or possibly has reached puberty gives her the wrong message about love and sex. She will feel aroused and not understand it.
Yes it's OK for uncles and neices to do a bit of cuddling. At 11, sitting on his lap for any length of time is violating boundaries. Showering together is definately not healthy.
I also believe that we can trust our intuition. Please call CPS and ask to be a confidential informant. Your friend will no doubt accuse you and you can decide whether or not to let her know. I've known many informants to successfully lie to the ones that they've reported. It's your decision.
But I strongly believe that it's everyone's responsibility to protect children and I don't know of any other way to cleanly resolve this issue.
If this is innocent the investigation will clear the uncle but they will tell him it's inappropriate and talk about the affect this will have on the neice.
DO NOT TALK WITH THE PARENTS unless you know and trust them to have a reasonable reaction.
By talking with them you're giving them an opportunity to tell their daughter to not say anything. They can also become so upset that they do something to the uncle. Perhaps only yell at him but again that gives him a warning and he'll have a story made up if what we think is true is true. The third reaction could be to punish the daughter. Not all parents are reasonable.
Stacey,
I think you not only need to report this behavior, but you should tell the parents you reported it as well. The reason is that you do not agree with this type of behavior and you are taking action and reporting it to authorities so they can have it on file. Many parents chose not to believe that things are going on, so they deny it. By reporting it you are taking a stand for what you believe in and taking a shower with an eleven year old girl is not appropriate behavior! When you report it, at least they will put it on file and possible contac the uncle on the situation. Also, the parents may be informed which may make them take the situation more seriously. The most important thing that may happen would be the daughter is talked to about the situation because in many cases they are happy for the attention and don't think anything is wrong or that it is love. It's important for 11 year old's or any child to understand appropriate behavior.
Keep us imformed, and I know you will do what is right.
Gabrielle
That is not normal. It screams of sexual abuse. I would even go as far as to say it would not, at 11 years old, be normal for a father and daughter to shower together. Here's something else to consider...the girl's aunt was there...WHY COULDN'T SHE SHOWER WITH HER IF SHE NEEDED HELP IN THE SHOWER or to share a shower?!?!?!?!! I would tell the girls parents and report the behavior to the authorities. It could be that this person even has a past history of this.
I was molested when I was about 14 by a friends dad. I had no clue what was happening or why he was doing the things he was doing. I wish someone had reported him. Nobody ever knew what happened. I didn't even tell my parents (ever, and I am now 28)...I was afraid to. If there really is something going on there, that little girl needs a voice because she won't use her own. She may not even know there's anything wrong with what he is doing. His wife may be completely aware that it is inappropriate and trying to ignore it so that she can continue her life with her husband without being interrupted. I know a lot of women who would just let something like that go and defend it to the hilt to prevent their hubby from getting into trouble with the law. You were 100% right for telling her how you felt, but don't leave it at that...tell the girls parents and the authorities, please. Too many people ignore odd behaviors like that.
You and your husband are on to something and should follow your gut. Report it. Each of you report it individually, and there will be two complaints on record. Anyone else who has a concern should report it. While nonone wants to believe a child is not being abused, ignoring the situation could be ruining this child for life.
DO NOT tell the parents you reported the situation, since that could make an already awkward situation more awkward. Talking with your friend may have strained your relationship for now, but it is something that she is closing her eyes to. You might lose a friend or two as a result of this situation (even if he turns out to be abusing her), but you may save a child from a life of shame and confusion.
Please call CPS, you and your husband both. That poor girl. She probably doesn't even know that this is wrong. Or perhaps she does and she's just not strong enough to say no. She sounds like she needs someone to stand up for her since her own aunt won't. Perhaps that someone is you.
Holly T.
If an adult man was showering with or excessively affectionate with my 11 year old niece or daughter, I'd be extremely concerned and would probably call the police. NOT DSHS or child protective services. The police. (I worked as a guardian ad litem investigating allegations of abuse and neglect and if I got the information you just described, I would immediately turn it over to the police.)
Given that child molestation is such a hot button topic right now, most men are even more careful around children than ever before. For a man, especially a man who is a biological stranger to the girl, to be that physically demonstrative in front of witnesses is a red flag.
Was he has physically affectionate toward his wife during this camping trip? Were they holding hands? Was she sitting on his lap? Did he constantly rub his WIFE? If the answer is no, then he is NOT as affectionate with his loved ones as she would like for you to believe.
I would suggest that you break off your friendship with this woman. If SHE doesn't recognize that there is something seriously wrong with this behavior, she is not someone you or your children should be around. (I can guarantee to you that she would consider that sexual behavior if an 18 year old was cuddled in his lap!)
I am going to be blunt about this one...
NOT NORMAL!
The 11 year old's parents need to be informed as well as the authorities. Call it a false alarm if it is.
Someone needs to educate them all on appropriate behaviors if that is all it is. My hunch is that it is more than that.
I know first hand how bad this can be under the surface if this is public behavior.
I won't go on. Please, make it known.
Being affectionate is one thing, but an 11 year old should not be showering with anyone, much less a grown man.
I have 2 relatives that went camping last week with a group camp.
They are children and one was exposed to a nude man making an inappropiate comment. Maybe it is nothing but the relatives were uncomfortable and they are small children. I am not letting that go either. Where do you draw the line? What age of child, what relationship. You draw it at comfort.
And if you aren't comfortable with it now, think of how horrrible the discomfort would be if you didn't do anything and found out something happened.
It is the safe/sorry issue.
OK, NOW I will stop going on.
It is difficult to risk a friendship, or to risk being wrong. But trust me, it is more difficult to see the eyes of a broken child whom no one helped.
I agree 100% that you should (& looks like did! :) call CPS. I also agree with many of the posters who said NOT to call the parents...on the possibility that actual abuse is happening. (For all of the reasons Marda mentioned.) You should ALWAYS follow your gut in these matters. HOWEVER...
I have a big, rumble tumble, outdoorsy family (so much so that they started one of the big outdoor companies in the area several decades ago). Kayaking, mountain climbing, camping, swimming, surfing, sailing, etc., etc., etc. We are also gregariously affectionate with each other (I STILL climb on several of my uncles' laps as a matter of fact...and on of my aunts who is big enough for me to curl up on!). It doesn't matter age/sex...we wrestle, trade backrubs, apply sunscreen, roughhouse, cuddle up for movies or to watch stars, dogpile, share seats, hug, kiss (one of the 5 year olds licks everyone though :P yuck!), tickle, etc. Rough and gentle affection is shared and given by all.
The outdoorsy part comes in to play because Especially when we're out of the city, and hot water is limited, we all pile in the showers together. Nudity is no big deal, we're uniformly filthy, trying to get clean. Just last weekend, 8 of us at the beach (a small crowd) trooped up to the outside shower that's attached to the house but blocked from view by the street/neighbors rinsed sand off, peeled off suits..got the sand off the rest of the way...dried off in the garage...and went inside to gather clothes. We had 2 elementary schoolers, a 4 20/30-somethings, and 2 50-somethings in the crowd. We were all naked -together- for 5 or 6 minutes, maybe, except the little ones who ran around the house and played in the splash pool naked for the next several hours.
In this country we're a bit of an aberration. Sure we know other families like us, & I know several individuals....but it's DEFINITELY the minority. In Japan though (lived there awhile), everyone goes naked into the public baths...and in western Europe I've found that most people have the same gregarious affection and nonchalance toward nudity. (My husband's family is in Italy, and one of my brothers married a German girl.)
The reason I bring all of this up, is though I believe you to be %100 in the right in calling in the authorities (darn straight, imagine if everyone who had an inkling DID something for a change!!! It could stop YEARS AND YEARS of trauma!! It could keep predators from moving on to other victims!! My god...if all people would pay attention and care!) ... Your friends' family MIGHT be like ours. I know my parents & aunts & uncles have snapped at people who question them...my generation doesn't care so much what others think when they're wrong, but my parents generation gets REALLY offended. I think my cousins and I care more that people these days care enough about kids to brave being rude. They're wrong about us, but maybe not the last time or the next time. And if they say something to OUR boisterous crowd, they've got cajones. That in and of itself should be fostered in society. :)
Peace, crossed fingers for a good outcome, & good luck!!
~Zoe
no I would agree that the behavior is not normal,but they were camping and as one person said that showering together isnt all that abnormal when camping, but one things for sure is that i hope you were right. cause i have seen the most horrific abuse happen at the hand of CPS and the home they place children in. believe me people CPS is not your friend as you may think they are.. and if your not right that child will be damaged forever being taken from her family not to mention what she will endure going into group homes and fosterhomes, meeting the worst of the worst in other kids and in adults. believe me child preditors place themselves where ever they can including foster parenting and group homes.. seen to much. know to much.. so i pray you were right and it all turns out well,, god bless
Can I pile onto the THAT IS WRONG comments. My mother was abused by her grandfather who also abused her mother and two generations of siblins. The ENTIRE family knew about it and did nothing! They even blamed my mother and her siblings........things get twisted! Please, please, please, call the police immediately!!! Also, document the crap out of everything you saw, with as many details as possible. What times did you see things (times, dates, people present, the conversation with the aunt is also important because she is accountable as a knowing adult!, etc) From your post I can almost guarantee that uncle is up to no good and I don't trust family to stop it. Please save that little girl! Who cares if you offend the friend, a little girls life is literally at stake!
Because the girl is your friend's niece, unless she has parental guardianship of the girl, the girl's mother should be told IN ADDITION to the police. If your friend is the guardian, then the state...regardless of how some people feel about CPS...should be notified.
I had a friend in the 7th grade who, with her siblings, was placed with her grandparents after being removed from the home of her mother. Her stepfather was sexually abusing her sister for a long time. He was abusive verbally and physically to the three of them, so when he moved into having intimate contact with her sister, she began to associate it with love and became very confused. Her brother ran away and got help after he was approached. Her mother didn't believe them...although she does now...and her sister is still a mess with a highly addictive personality and she has difficulty with men and relationships. She is almost 40 and still very messed up.
Because you witnessed this behavior, you have an obligation to report this. It is far better for you to lose a friendship with a friend who's husband you couldn't trust around your girls than to live with guilt when you find out later this girl was being abused and you didn't do anything to help her. My guess is your friend has fought with her husband about this before and has been beaten down...or desensitized...or she, like my friend's mom, is afraid of the truth because it will hurt.
THIS IS SEXUAL ABUSE! REPORT IMMEDIATELY!
SHOWERING? WHAT! Her sitting on his lap and him rubbing her?
Holding hands?!
What are they doing when your not around?
Is she stupid or what?
This needs to be reported immediately!
You will loose your friendship, but you will save this little girl from a life full of pain if she can get out of this now, and get help!
This makes me litterally sick!
There is nothing normal about an Uncle and his 11 year old niece Showering together, holding hands and him rubbing her.
When she's on his lap. he definately has an erection no one else can see! Hello!!!
I'm sick over this. Obviously you have never dealt with sexual abuse, have you. These are very VERY clear signs. Did you know that someone like this usually has over 20 victims in his life time. Your kids could be next.
It's BULL ---- that they are a very affectionate family!
This is clearly NOT normal behavior.
Any councelor would report this if they knew.
You need to rid yourself of these people and protect any future victims of this man.
It's obvious that this friend of yours has issues to just turn her cheek.
I'm just sick about this.
Please report this, Please. It is your obligation. You will save this little girl from a life of Hell!
Have you seen the comercial on t.v. about the man that talks about ... I'm a close friend of the family, i'm your childs coach, I like to have fun with your kids, I like to play with them, and when your not around...
It goes something like that. It's screaming about sexual abuse with our kids, and that anyone can be the preditor!
Go to the Police. They will definately get a handle on this. CPS many times isn't your best source.
I finally went to the Police when I was in my 30's and filed a complaint about issues that had taken place with me and a 64 year old neighbor when I was 9-14 years old. They dug into it quickly, and the Old man that I still thought was 64 years old would have then been in his 90's, but had passed away 13 years earlier from Prostate Cancer. After an investgation on him, the Officer told me that usually someone like this usually has over 20 vistims in their lifetime. Unfortunately, No one had ever reported him! My closure finally came about 3 years ago when I decided to make a visit to his wife. I confronted her about the situation, and said, I'm the little girl that Frank use to take into the shed and Molest as you would watch from your kitchen window.
What she said to me that had finally given this closure was, " He's dead, and that's in the past"!
That's all I needed, and about three weeks, and I have been able to finally put this to rest!
I had never said anything to my parents because I thought that I was in the wrong, and I would get beat!
He told me not to tell!
Before the sexual part started, he became my friend. We would dumpster dive in a trash outside of Pay n Save. (Like a Walgreens). Funny thing is, I'd always find really neat toys and stuff in there! Looking at it now, They were intentially put there. He knew how to groom me. By the time the sexual abuse began, I felt that he was my friend. When he told me not to tell, there was no way that I was going to betray him. I hated what was happening, but I never told. I never told my parents, but I did tell my husband, and my children. As a Mother, I felt that if I raised my children, and they were never abused, I have done my job right!
I can say that this has sexual abuse has always been a very open topic in my home, (My immediate home with my children), and my kids have always told me they have never been touched. I have protected them more than what they probably wanted, but they were not aloud to just go spend the night somewhere. It was only with a very select few.
Please report this to the POLICE!
You will save this girl from a life time of Hell!
I have a 7 year old daughter who is very affectionate. She loves to cuddle up to her mom and dad and hold hands with us. She gives her teacher a hug every day before she leaves.
I think cuddling up together sometimes is normal, even holding hands. But excessive rubbing and showering are beyond the realm of what is normal or acceptable. I wonder if the child's mother knows what is going on. If she doesn't, she needs to find out. If I saw this between my daughter and husband I would do make sure it stopped, so it definitely should not be going on between a young girl and any man.
No this is NOT normal behavior and in fact could be considered child sexual abuse and at the very least be considered "grooming" behaviors. The fact that the mom was offended concerns me as well as that indicates to me that she is ignoring whats going on. I would talk to this little girl alone if you can and someone needs to teach her how to keep her body safe. She is going to have a lot of emotional problems as a teen and adult if someone doesnt intervene on her behalf, I know I am a survivor if childhood sexual abuse.